[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Shining Inspiring Voices of Autism with show host Jennifer Dantzler. My name is Jack. I am in the autism spectrum and have Tourette syndrome. Thank you for taking the time to learn more about the world of autism. If you enjoy what you hear today, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Hey, everyone, this is Jennifer Dantzler, and I'm the executive director and founder of inspirend, a nonprofit whose mission is to create truly inclusive communities through education and engagement. The goal of this podcast is to shine a light on real people and their stories in hopes of inspiring others who are on this journey of autism. Either themselves, their child, their loved one, their co worker. I truly believe ignorance is not bliss, and we cannot be inclusive communities if we do not understand the people in the community.
With autism now affecting 1 in 31 people, we need to get louder about this topic. We recognize that autism is a spectrum. There are a lot of people with a lot of different needs, a lot of resources available or none available. And we know that in every episode, we can't meet everyone's needs for their specific interests.
However, we hope that in each episode, you do gleam some kind of insight as to how you can help your child or yourself be a better advocate. And as we go through our podcast, our goal really is to address the entire spectrum, the various needs, the various environments that we're going to be in. And we hope that there's something in every episode for each one of you. So let's get started.
We are here today with my good friend and colleague, Dana Harris.
She is the owner of Spectacular Kids, which is in the Houston area, which is an ABA clinic. And I have her in today because she's a person I highly respect. And we've actually known each other for about 14 years.
And I actually was reminiscing with Dana about how we first met. She reminded me that we had a mutual colleague that she asked her if we could meet because Dana was coming into the area where I had a clinic and wanted to be respectful and not step on any toes or encroach on anything, which is one of the very first things I respect about Dana, because I think that's a little bit of a lost art in this day and age. So, Dana, thank you for being here.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: You're welcome.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: So our main goal for today as Dana and I talk is really to help our listeners understand, really what ABA is probably a little bit more about what ABA is not. As we all know, there's a lot of discussion out there in the world about aba, right? Now. And so we really want to help, maybe debunk some myths about it. And then also for those families who are either considering ABA and also or are in ABA now, how do we evaluate what is good aba, Right. And how do parents know what to ask? How do parents know what to expect and all of those good things? Sound good, Dana?
[00:02:50] Speaker C: Sounds good. Let's do it.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Great. Okay, so first, talk a little bit about Spectacular Kids. It's also called Spec Kids for short, because we always have to shorten everything and talk a little bit about what services you offer.
[00:03:02] Speaker C: Sure. So Spectacular Kids, as Jen mentioned, is a ABA clinic in the Houston area. And we service kiddos from the age of diagnosis through their 10th year. We provide both intensive and part time services. It's solely based on what the needs of the kiddo are. We also contract with school districts to provide consultations within the classrooms, and we'll do trainings for teachers, other educators, as well as daycares. We kind of COVID the gamut.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: The gamut, Right. And at the end of the podcast, and to make you listen, I'll let you know how you can find them if you want more information on them. But Dana's also a board certified behavior analyst. Right. And licensed behavior analyst in the state of Texas. So she and I kind of grew up in the same sort of pattern. Being clinician and then saying, I think we can help more kids. Let's open our own clinics.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Yeah, our hearts.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah, our hearts. Right. We were having a little bit of a weak moment, but we did it right. And we're very happy that we both did it. How do you describe what ABA is to new parents?
[00:04:01] Speaker C: ABA is one of the weirdest but best services out there for children with autism because we do cover all areas of development, which is not typically found in other therapies. We work on communication, we work on self help skills, we work on cognitive skills, fine motor, gross motor, you name it. We have had clients who were going on a family vacation and they were concerned that the kiddo may not keep on their bracelet, you know, at an amusement park. And so implementing toleration programs for things like that or parents who may have difficulty with their children at the grocery store. Our parent training goes wherever the need is. So ABA in a nutshell, should cover all areas of development utilizing the principles of reinforcement. So ensuring that we are working to increase the behaviors that we want to see more of by providing reinforcement. And we also work to decrease maladaptive behavior such as, you know, tantrums, aggression, self injurious, Behaviors, things like that.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: We do a lot of that through, like, breaking down skills into smaller steps, some repetitive teaching. Why do you think ABA has gotten such a bad rap?
[00:05:11] Speaker C: I've been in the field for 25 years. There are a lot of individuals who have had really negative experiences. And, you know, I think that it's important to provide some sympathy for that. Yeah, it absolutely happens. You know, we are not all created the same. Every ABA clinic will run things the exact same way. However, I know that the concern for utilizing punishment protocols has become a huge concern. We're in this age of ascent based care. You know, there are people who have had experiences where there may have been abuse going on, but that is not aba. That was a terrible. I don't even want to call them a service provider, a terrible individual providing that. It's not even a service providing a disservice to the child. And it is unfortunate because I do find myself often talking to parents about the YouTube videos that they've seen and the TikTok videos that they've seen that indicate that ABA is abuse and, you know, things of that nature to help them understand that our goal is to build a relationship with their child and to help them be the best version of themselves that they can be. And it really sucks, you know, to say it bluntly, when parents have a negative outlook on something as a whole, when it's really individualized, you know, from that standpoint.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's the part that I think I agree is so frustrating because there are good and bad neurologists out there. There are good and bad psychiatrists out there.
No one's saying we should throw out neurology or we should throw out psychiatry. We just shouldn't be seeing those providers. And I think. But part of the problem is the parents don't fully understand what ABA is. Right. And so they don't know what they're looking for.
We highly encourage our listeners out there to really do their research on it. ABA stands for Applied Behavior Analysis. Right. And it's about the study of human behavior, not even about the autistic behavior.
And so, you know, the way I'll explain it to people is, do you go to work and get a paycheck? Well, that's your reinforcer.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: So we, most of us need some kind of extrinsic motivation for a lot of things we do.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: And so why are we asking our children who are affected in sometimes many ways, to not need some kind of motivation or reinforcement for working really hard on a skill that they Find challenging. Back in the day when you and I first started, it was pre medical insurance. Pre medically necessary aba.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Those were the days.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: The days. And you and I have talked many times about was it good or bad that insurance came into play. Right. And I think the answer is yes. Meaning obviously it helped a lot more families get access to aba, but then it also maybe brought in a lot more providers because I think there were some people out there that thought oh, medical insurance is paying for it, therefore there must be money in this, which in a one to one service there is just no money.
And so for our families out there, again, when you and I started, I don't know, there were five of us maybe in the entire Houston area. There's now ABA centers on every street corner, which again can be good because then more parents can access the services.
How do parents know what good ABA is versus bad aba? What are some of the questions they should ask in their initial tour or interview?
[00:08:27] Speaker C: Are there board certified behavior analysts on site? You know, technology age and we've got a lot of telehealth supervision, you know, being conducted and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not complaining about it, but in my opinion the service that we provide is an in person service. You know, I want to ensure that there's someone there to support the staff should a child begin to engage in severe aggression or self injurious behaviors. Having someone certified on site can bring about a different level of comfort because the oversight is there. The other thing that I would have parents ask in regards to if this is a good ABA center and how many clients do they have in the building?
How many locations do they have? What does a day of services look like? Do you guys conduct parent training and if so, what does that look like? Oftentimes our parents are given a diagnosis and told that 40 hours is the way to go. But there's not a whole lot of information given on the service and what should be expected from it as a result. You know, sometimes parents may end up in a location where their kiddo isn't getting the best services because you know, it was just the closest one to my house. As opposed to going through the series of questions to ensure that their baby is going to make progress there.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And the remote supervision I know you and I have also talked about a lot is tricky because I, you know, I think where remote supervision has done well is in more of our rural areas.
[00:09:57] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Where if you know, the closest BCBA is two hours away. And I'd rather Maybe them be putting more eyes on the child a couple times a week, even if it's through an iPad. But I think when we're talking clinic based, maybe almost becoming a little too easy.
Right. And a lot of BCBAs now are saying, well, I'll just work remotely. I've obviously never done that because I'm a little old. I can't imagine doing that myself on the other screen of an iPad.
[00:10:21] Speaker C: Same, you know.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: And again, I think some clinics who still have remote supervision do it. Well, from the standpoint of there's still a BCBA on site, your child's BCBA might not be on site all the time, but there's someone there to help support and backup.
[00:10:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: If your child's having a challenging behavior and someone to support that RBT or direct technician with challenging behaviors.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Right, right, right.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I think as to what you said, you know, if you're in a medically insurance ABA program, parent training is not only approved, but encouraged.
[00:10:56] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: And so if a parent is not getting it, that's a problem.
[00:11:00] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think the more confusing part is that some parents may not even know that they're supposed to be getting it. They didn't have the list of questions to ask. They weren't sure what to look for in terms of the service. And so you don't know what you don't know.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: That's exactly right.
[00:11:15] Speaker C: It is important to me to disseminate information to families, to be able to seek out the correct services. You know, we're not the right fit for everybody, you know, and I think that it's important to make sure that you're asking questions to make sure that this is the right fit for your child and for your family.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Emily, actually, within the insurance world, many times insurance will give pushback for reauthorizations if there hasn't been parent training.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: So not only is it really important, which we'll talk about next, why, but also from just a pure coverage standpoint, it's often required.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: So now let's talk about parent training. What should be happening in parent training? What. What should parents be working on? What should be the BCBAs be doing with the parent?
[00:11:55] Speaker C: So parent training should be just as individualized as the programming for the child. Like I mentioned before, you know, with our family, that was going on a, a family vacation, that was what parent training looked like with the toleration of the bracelet and when you hold mom's hand while we're walking down the sidewalk and grocery stores that, you know, the kiddos running away from mom and not staying next to her and holding onto the basket. And so we go to the store and we work on that type of behavior. You know, it's also teaching the basics of aba. What is reinforcement? And, you know, it's really important to praise your child after they've done this thing that you're wanting them to do more of so that they are encouraged and they recognize that it's a good thing.
So we can start from the very basics of reinforcement and go all the way through community trips, whatever the need is for the family. That's where we go. Haircuts, doctor's appointments, dentist appointment. I tell families there's really nothing too weird. There's nothing you can ask us that, you know, we probably won't be able to jump in and assist with.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Right. So I want to reiterate that that parent training can happen and oftentimes should happen out in the community.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: So if you're at a provider and the provide saying, no, we can't leave the premises, that's not true.
[00:13:08] Speaker C: No.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: You can be going into the home. You can be going into the community.
Now, there are often parameters. Right. That as BCBAs, we need to set as far as going into the home. And we're going into the home to train parents not to babysit.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Not to do in home therapy. If what we're doing is parent training.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: And we need to see some kind of carryover and commitment to what we are doing in the home.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: What often happens is the parents don't want the provider to come into the home because they're embarrassed about the dishes in the sink or the holes in the wall or the laundry piled up. And I think for parents, we cannot reiterate enough. We don't care. Right.
[00:13:47] Speaker C: At all.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: There's the new We Don't Care club. We're going to have the new We Don't Care club for aba.
[00:13:52] Speaker C: No judgment, though.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. But we'd rather go in and help the child figure out in that environment what's happening. Right. Because we also know generalization is not our friend in the world of autism.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: And it's very easy to sit with your BCBA in a clinic and talk about what should happen and then what happens when the child didn't do what we said step two was supposed to be, and then what? Right.
[00:14:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: The analogy I try to use a lot with parents is if you're trying to quit smoking and you're only quitting smoking six hours a day, like if they're at therapy or if you're only trying to lose weight and you're only dieting six hours a day, are you going to lose weight or quit smoking?
No. So why are we asking our non verbal or emerging verbal 4 year olds or 6 year olds or 12 year olds to only be working on these services 6 hours a day? It's not going to be as effective.
[00:14:38] Speaker C: This is true. I mean ABA can be implemented throughout your entire day, your entire life, you know, and I think a lot of people are utilizing it and don't even realize it, you know, but building in that structure to see consistent growth and you know, all of that good stuff within the home is really important. And like you mentioned, generalization is a thing. I always tell the parents, if they can do it at the clinic, but they can't do it at home, what's the point? Doing in home parent training community based and meeting them where their needs are is ridiculously important.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Yep. And really being honest too with your provider, if the sometimes are newer BCBAs who don't have a lot of experience, we'll set up data requirements and expectations that just aren't reasonable for the family.
Right. And so. Yeah, but as parents you need to be honest. And you'd say there's no way I can take a data point every time he hits his head or every time he tries to attack the dog, whatever it is. And so figuring out those data systems that will be effective and be real data.
[00:15:36] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Right. Because there's nothing worse than getting the data from anyone. But it, it wasn't accurate.
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Right?
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Right. It was only some of the data.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Right.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Sometimes some of the data is worse than no data.
[00:15:47] Speaker C: True. This is very true. Yes, absolutely.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So parent training, very important, really must do if your provider is not offering it, go back and talk to them about it and ask about it. And it really needs to be to meet your family's needs as you talked about. Right, Correct. The real goal of parent training and the real goal of ABA is to improve quality of life. And I think that often gets lost in the shuffle. Right?
[00:16:12] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: And so be honest about what that quality of life is for your family. And again, that transfers over. Now let's talk about in a clinic, what would you say are probably some key components to a good ABA program for the child? Like within the world of treatment planning, programming, that sort of thing.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: We're not a cookie cutter program. You know, it's not everybody's working on the same receptive labels. For example, if this kid doesn't Have a dog at home, but they have a bird. You know, I'm gonna care about teaching him a bird before I teach them, you know, a dog.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Great example.
[00:16:45] Speaker C: You know, it's. It's important to make sure that we are teaching the kids things that they are going to encounter on a frequent basis because that also helps us when it comes to generalization. So treatment plans programming should be individualized for each child. And I don't feel like you can individualize programming without having a conversation with the parents about what their needs are. We do the evaluation and yeah, we can tell, you know, where there may be some areas of deficit and we can put in programs for those things. But what is the family's biggest concern? We work so hard on imitation, for example, but this parent really just wants her child to sit at the dinner table with them.
That's where we need to start because this is going to be the most impactful for this family. And I don't think that that happens enough.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Well, and I think some of the challenge with that is sometimes our insurance requirements slash restrictions. And so as BCBAs, we know what the insurance company likes to see and wants to see and doesn't want to see.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: And so therefore, I think over time, we've had maybe a little bit of treatment drift because we want to get good coverage. We want to get appropriate coverage for the child. It might be that we need to be working on sitting at a table 50% of the time. But is. Are there going to then be enough treatment goals on the treatment plan to get approved for the appropriate number of hours? Right. It's a.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: It's honestly a little bit. A little bit of a game as parents. Right. I think what we want you to take from this is that you should be a part of that treatment planning process. If you drop your child off on day one and on day six, you get a treatment plan sent to you and there's been no conversation.
Probably a red flag.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: Absolutely. That treatment plan should be discussed in detail with families prior to the kiddos starting services, because there may be goals that we've written because we didn't see it during the evaluation. And the parents like, no, he does that all the time, you know, and we don't want to waste time on goals that the baby can do. Already I say the word baby, I call everybody baby. I don't care how old you are.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: I guess what I need parents to understand too, is that treatment plan is truly the holy grail of what they're going to be working on. Right. If it's not in the treatment plan, it's probably not going to be addressed. So that treatment plan is going to be very, very important and where you have to really spend your time. I know life can be overwhelming, it can be busy, but that treatment plan is going to be very important. And out of respect for the BCBAs, you can go back anytime and modify a treatment plan.
[00:19:12] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: It is hard, though. So we, as BCBAs, would rather the parents up front really spend some time working on it and improving it so that we don't have to go back and do all the paperwork. So it's really worth time and investment to carefully look at the treatment plan. And as you said earlier, Dana, like no goal. That's weird. Right. And also, there's no goal too small.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: This is true. Yes.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Right. And so again, whether it's just tolerating the noise of the garbage truck going by because your child has a meltdown every Tuesday morning, tell your provider about that.
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: And let's work on that. There's all kinds of things we can do to work on that before we even go into the home and practice that on Tuesday mornings.
[00:19:53] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. I think that open communication is so important, but I also think that it's important for BCBAs to help guide and lead those conversations because especially for some of our newly diagnosed peanuts, the parents may not recognize that this is something that we can help with. So we tend to ask a lot of questions, you know, how did he sleep last night? What do you eat for breakfast? You know, because just asking routine questions can give you so much insight into things that the parents struggling with. And then we have the conversation of, okay, well, we can help you out with that. We can schedule an in home parent training to work on, you know, bedtime routines or whatever the case may be. Um, and a lot of times parents eyes will light up like, you can help me with that. And it's important, you know, but they may not have thought to mention that to us had we not asked.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: Well, and you start out the whole conversation talking about how, you know, ABA is its own entity because we really are working on the whole child.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Right. Where some of these other services, if you're working on physical therapy, it's about gross motor. It's not about all of it. And ABA really is designed to help the whole child. And I'm going to say it again, improve quality of life, not become a robot, not take away who they are as a person.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: No.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: And so it's really important that parents understand what they should be getting yes. From their service providers. What would be some other questions or things that parents should be asking about their day, maybe about their rbts and who's working with their child and that sort of thing.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: One of the things that I often encourage parents to ask is what does your training for the RBT's look like? Is this an in person training? Are they being trained on a computer? Is there any follow up? If they are being trained on a computer prior to them working with my child, you know, what does that look like? And I think that training is such a core component of quality services.
But I also know the flip side of a lot of ABA providers struggling with turnover. The concern of rushing training comes in just to have, you know, bodies on the floor. And so it's important to make sure that that's not a process that's being rushed. Regardless of the situation that the company is in at the time, that will trickle down and it will hurt. So it's important to make sure that the training is accurate, that it's interactive, they have support to ask questions after training, during training, that there's hands on training with their child and not just the classroom training. That's, you know, really, really important.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: And I think also then what that means sometimes is the reality is, yes, unfortunately there is high turnover in the world of aba. You know, it's a tricky one. Whether you judge whether a clinic is good or bad based on turnover. There are multiple factors to turnover, Right?
[00:22:33] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Normally you would say if it's really high turnover, that's probably a red flag for that clinic and it usually is. But I wouldn't base a decision solely on that. Right, yeah. But back to your point of the question about training, that might mean if they had to hire staff for your child and they call you and say we only need to do two hours a day for the next week or we need to put services on hold for a week to get your person trained, that's probably worth it because bad ABA is sometimes worse than no ABA hands down.
[00:23:03] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Yeah. That is part of the reality. You know, I think sometimes also for families to understand ABA is one to one. It's one to one service. If your child's therapist calls out sick with the flu, like it's a real problem, it's a real struggle for ABA clinics to deal with that.
[00:23:21] Speaker C: It is. And you know, I really consider us to be very blessed because we don't have high turnover and I know that's almost unheard of. We've had several staff actually take Pay cuts to come to us because of the quality of service that we provide and the level of support that is given to them throughout the day. So we have a requirement that there have to be a minimum of two supervisors in the building at all times. We're generally always there. But of course, I like for my staff to take vacations and, you know, relax. But it is really important to make sure that that support is available to the rbts when they're in the building.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So training. Great question to ask, and you have the right to ask, what does the training look like for the people that are going to be working with my child? Yes, you had already mentioned the. Is my child going to be supervised remotely by a BCBA on site or maybe hybrid? I know there's some hybrid going on. And yes, that's not all bad. Right? That. That can be. Okay. Interaction and communication from the BCBA to you. Right. As we talked about with parent training, you mentioned earlier, Ascent.
Let's talk a little bit about Ascent.
Ascent, I would say, is doing what we call the pendulum swing right now, where there's always been a humanity to aba again, to good aba, and working on what the child needs to work on, what the child wants to work on, what the family wants to work on. But I think right now where we're going is a little bit too.
Well, honestly, I'm going to say too far. But one of the things I know you and I talked about previously was for the parents, especially if they're coming from another ABA clinic, asking that clinic's philosophy on Ascent to make sure it aligns with yours, whichever end of the spectrum it's on. Right?
[00:25:03] Speaker C: Correct. Yep. That would absolutely be an important question to ask because some parents are not operating under the concept of ascent based at home, and they don't necessarily want that concept to be followed within a clinic. And I think, like you mentioned, Ascent based can look like a lot of different things.
And so we have some facilities that may allow the child to. I don't want to say do whatever they want, but, I mean, escape a demand. Escape a demand. That's a nice way to put it. In essence, we may actually be shaping more maladaptive behaviors because we are teaching the kiddo that that's okay. It's okay if you hit me and I'm gonna stop. I'm a mom of two, and I treat all of my kiddos at the clinic as if they were my own, because that was part of the reason that I started this company. I wanted to make sure that there was somewhere that I would want to send my kiddos, that I would trust that they were in good hands and they were okay, and, you know, their quality of life was, you know, taken into consideration, and compassion is provided, you know, throughout services.
But I understand as a mom, if my child hits me, that's not okay. From a standpoint of being neurodivergent versus neurotypical, should we treat our peanuts that are developmentally different because of the diagnosis, or should we set different expectations to help them improve their skill sets and understand a functional way to communicate as opposed to engaging in the aggressive behavior?
[00:26:31] Speaker B: For example. Right. Like, if I had a dime for every time my daughter or son said, I don't want to go to school today. But guess what? We made them go to school today because we knew it was in their best interest.
But if there was a continual pattern, then we were in our principal's office talking about why or talking to the teacher about why school wasn't going well and why it was so aversive and how we could help that. But we didn't let them stop going to school.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Why would we then not work on a skill for our children who have, you know, tend to hit instead of use their words to say, stop or take a break or I'm hungry or my stomach hurts.
So Ascent, Right, is when the child is indicating that they're willing to learn or engage in whatever demand we gave. Again, in life, many of us have to engage in demand. So we don't like or wanted to.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: Do it on a daily basis.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Right? Right. I mean, I want to eat my packages of M&Ms, four packages a day, every day. But I don't, because I know it's not what's right for me. Right. But when I was a child, I needed my mommy to tell me, no, it's one package, and then we're all done. Right. Regardless of our philosophies on Ascent. It is important as parents then, because there are pretty extreme philosophies out there right now on Ascent. And so if you're moving from one clinic to another, you might assume that Ascent is the same across the board.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: And it's just not.
[00:27:51] Speaker C: It's not. When parents ask us, are we ascent based? I say we're kind of a happy medium because I have expectations for this child, and I know that they can do great and amazing things. And that doesn't mean that everything has to have a punishment protocol to say that we're a happy medium. I don't want people to Assume that there's the other extreme right of abuse and punishment and things like that. Like you said, if your kiddos didn't want to go to school, I'm so sorry, buddy. You still got to go.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: That's not abusive. So having expectations and following through with that, I think is different than what some on the other side of the extreme may do when it comes to ascent based care. And we are compassionate. We provide compassionate services.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: For a little while there, that was sort of the, the movement was compassionate care. And I loved that. I think we have grown over the last 30 to 40 years about being more compassionate with our ABA.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: I personally think it's gone a little too far, you know, or what's out there, I guess, in discussion is about, again, whether or not it's abusive or. Or turns them into robots. And I can tell you, hands down, I work with a lot of adults on the spectrum that I've worked with for 15, 20 years.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: And they're happy as larks. Right. And I mean, I have one in particular that when he first came to me, 300 aggressions an hour, had actually broken ribs and caused a miscarriage in a previous location.
And he is not only happy and working out in job sites and going to places, an overnight sleepaway camp. I'm one of his favorite people. When I'm in the building, he has to see me. He wants to see me. And I'm the one in the beginning who did the hard work with him. But I did it compassionately. And he now has a much happier fulfilled life because he can use his words when it's raining. He's very frustrated. He can now use his words rather than hitting his head on his knee.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: To communicate that.
[00:29:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: But sometimes that takes work. And if I waited for him to agree to using his words.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: I don't know that we'd be sitting where we are today with him. Right, Right.
[00:29:46] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's important to build rapport with the clients that we work with. And I think there's so many components to ABA and there's so many components to how we work with the kids and why and when you have a great relationship with a client. I don't like using the word client, the peanuts.
When, when you have a genuine relationship, they can tell the kids, know that I love them with all my heart, and they run to me. And even if we've had a really hard day, you know, we're gonna hug it out at the end.
But they also know that I have high expectations for them, but I am going to love them. And we are going to play and dance and sing and spin in circles because it is supposed to be fun.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:31] Speaker C: Therapy is supposed to, you know, the ABA should be fun and they should be having a good time with their rbts.
And yes, that does often encourage the child to come and sit more often. But if I can hit you and get the same thing, why should I sit and complete tasks?
[00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think you also just hit the nail on the head like it's supposed to be fun.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: It is supposed to be fun.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: So if it's not fun, if your child's in a program now or if they, you know, and that's the other piece is using. I call it your mommy gut. Right. Or your parent gut.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: And let's talk a little bit about that from terms of. Sometimes parents go in maybe for parent training, and the therapist or the BCBA is giving updates on what they were doing and how they were doing and how the child was reacting. Or maybe the parents observing, but the parent is like, well, I don't really know what ABA is, so I don't know that I should speak up like I'm observing, and that seems harsh. They're the professionals. They know what they're doing. Should parents be listening to their guts?
[00:31:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. Because if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. I try to be very open and upfront with our families from the very beginning, particularly those who engage in more severe behaviors, because, you know, all of our staff are safety care trained. I consider us to be a come as you are clinic. I always say, you know, the kids can't determine the type of autism they have, so we shouldn't be selective about who we're going to treat. But with that, we sometimes get highly aggressive kids. It's one of my most favorite components of the job because I know the success that they're going to reach because of the services. I know the decreases in these behaviors that we're going to see because of the services.
And I know the quality of life that this kiddo can now have with their family at home because of the services.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:16] Speaker C: But being upfront with the families to let them know what various protocols may look like. If there is a kiddo that might need to go to a hold for, I do it on the parent first. I want you to know what it feels like and if this isn't cool with you, let me know and we'll do something else. But I can't let him Put his head through the window.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:37] Speaker C: And so it's important that that is understood too. You know, when we talk about our ethical boundaries guidelines, we are supposed to keep these kiddos safe. And if following an ascent based protocol hinders that, it needs to be considered.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: And I think, as you said, it kind of goes back to the parent training conversation. It's about educating the parents because it doesn't mean they might not be sitting there observing. And it's hard to watch your child struggling.
But again, I think there's a difference between hard to watch and I'm understanding the why behind why they're doing whatever they're doing, you know, in the session versus I don't really have a clue. And this feels really bad and this doesn't feel right to me. Right. If you are not being considered as part of the clinical team. Yeah, that's probably a red flag.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Right. Right. Okay. What advice would you want to give to a parent of a newly diagnosed child?
[00:33:31] Speaker C: Be careful of what you read on the Internet. I think that would be the first piece of advice I would give. I would encourage parents to join parent groups.
I don't feel like anyone else can understand this group of parents more than other parents who are in the same situation.
My former parents come in and speak to my babies because these kids are grown now and they've been through this. And so it's important to have that perspective from a parent because I think that it is taken in a little bit differently. Researching is, you know, it's. It's hard to say because what does research look like? I have a lot of parents now who are, well, I saw on Tick Tock and I saw this on YouTube and I'm like, okay, but is this a credible source? You know, this is one person's experience. That doesn't mean that this is the case across the board.
Are you seeing videos of the opposite too? You know, with positive change and positive growth and, you know, I'm sustaining a much better life now because of the services that I went through, because there are videos on both ends of the spectrum. But, you know, you've got algorithms with social media, so you see what you look for. And so it's important to reach out to medical professionals. Parents, ask the doctors questions. My son was diagnosed with Tourette's last year. I have not been in a position where I didn't really know what that meant. You know, I know that I see people with vocal tics and things of that nature. And my sons were all motor based, you know, not Vocal. And I had to start researching and we spent an hour and a half talking to the doctor. I was like, I'm sorry, I know you have other patients, but I have questions and I learned so much.
And I'm glad that I asked those questions because I wouldn't be able to seek out the appropriate help for him had I not asked those questions.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So ask questions, do research. And then I know the other one I like to say is, but time is not on our side.
[00:35:26] Speaker C: No.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: So we respect maybe the grieving process, but your baby doesn't have the time right for you to work through that. The thing I like to say to parents is most of the things they're not just going to grow out of, because I'll hear that a lot, or sometimes they even get that from the doctors.
And so early intervention is key in whatever way that's doable for your family.
There's a lot within the public school that can be offered because I know we've talked a lot about clinic based or medically based aba, but within the public school, you're eligible for the preschool program at age three if you have a diagnosis. So sometimes it's about going in. That's really probably its own other whole podcast around public school advocacy and knowledge and all of those things. Just jumping in with two feet and almost figuring it out as you go.
One of the books I forgot to mention earlier as a resource is it's called make it Meaningful by Peter Gerhardt. And especially if you have a child that's starting to get a little older. And back to the whole treatment goal planning, really important resource for BCBAs, all clinicians, but also as parents, so that the parents can be educated as to what should be on their treatment plans. So we're talking about early intervention. Jump in with two feet, get started. It's good programming. What are some victories you've seen? Like, what do you see? What's the progress you see? Talk about a kiddo or two and changes you see?
[00:36:53] Speaker C: My goodness, that's a long history of success. We've had so many clients do things that we may not have ever imagined from the beginning. So we've had kiddos who had, you know, very severe social anxiety. You know, you ask them their name and it's just like, you know, I'm stressing here.
And to have the parent send you a video of this baby on stage at school performing in the school play. That's cool.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Yes, that's cool. Yes.
[00:37:26] Speaker C: Or kiddos who are now playing sports with their peers. The list can go on and on. We've had, you know, kiddos who, like you mentioned earlier, engaged in severe aggression for just about the entire day, causing a lot of severe damage to, you know, property and to people and all of those things. And to be able to turn things around to the point that we're having dance parties and you want to hug and you now love social interactions, it's like night and day. And to know that this is where we can get with quality services that drives me on a daily basis to push these kids because I know what they can do.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: Please share those victories with your providers, with your BCBAs and your RBTs, because that is really our why and that's what keeps us going. And I, I've been very fortunate. I have so many parents for the last 20 to 30 years that still reach out, send me their college graduation pictures, you know, and it really is our why. I also hear a lot of my child's too high functioning for aba. Like, you know, you have a four year old that just might have a few deficits.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: And oftentimes from the doctor or from someone, they'll say, my child's too high functioning for aba. Is that true?
[00:38:40] Speaker C: I do ABA on my husband.
You know, I don't think that there is a level of severity that would dictate if ABA would be beneficial or not. Because it's a science. You know, the way that it's applied, it can cover any behavior, whether it be a high functioning kiddo who needs to learn how to, you know, extend conversations or to initiate, you know, greeting peers and adults and understanding, you know, stranger danger. And the list goes on and on. But it's only beneficial if the programming is functional right for that child. But recognizing that even our high functioning peanuts have deficits that we can work on to address that can help reduce their anxiety in certain situations.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: You know, for our children diagnosed with autism, time is not our friend. And many times the picking it up in the natural environment isn't always effective. And so we really need to be very deliberate about our teaching. So that's where you had mentioned, like you do full time and part time. Because there might be children that benefit from both ABA and school.
[00:39:45] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Or ABA and other therapies. And so it's not an all or nothing thing. Again, as you said, ABA happens all day long in all of our lives because it's about human behavior, not autistic behavior. And so if you have a child that is doing really well but has just certain deficits in certain areas, still look into ABA to close that gap. Right, because the gap does get wider the older they get, right?
[00:40:10] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: Okay. All right. Anything else you want to share before we go? Any other brilliance that you want to give as far as, you know, how can we help these parents know what to look for?
[00:40:23] Speaker C: The one thing I would close with is to give the parents a little bit of encouragement and knowing that our goal is to support you. And we understand that this is difficult to find a provider that you feel like you can trust, leaving your child who may not be able to tell you what happened that day in their care. And we understand that it's hard, and we are here with you, but we are here to help you guys get through it. Asking the right questions to an ABA center to make sure that they're a good fit for you and your family is important. And so if you don't feel that connection, it could mean that it's not the right place. We talked about following your mama. Good. Right.
And so I talk a lot about our company culture with families. You know, some will ask that question, what's the culture like?
And some won't. But I always tell them we're. We're very family oriented.
You know, we are supportive of our staff and their kids just as much as we are for these babies that we're providing services for, for. And a lot of the families will just say, we can tell. We can tell. We're here to support you. Like we said earlier that there's nothing that's too weird to ask. You are struggling with something. Say something.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: Oh, great. One day. Now if you're struggling with something, say something. Love it. Profound. Love it. Okay, Dana, where can people find out more about you and your wonderful program?
[00:41:41] Speaker C: So you can find us at spec kidsaba.com s p e c k dash I d s aba.com you can find all of the information about the services that we provide on the website. You can always drop by, too, to say hello. You know, we give tours at the beginning or end of the day and.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: Yeah, wonderful. Well, as I said, Dana's one of. Probably one of my most highly respected professionals in the field. And we've just been together through a lot, a lot of changes and a lot of things, and so highly, highly respect you and highly appreciate you being here today to help.
Help our families figure out how to navigate this. So thank you.
[00:42:17] Speaker C: Thank you for having me, Jen. And ditto.
[00:42:20] Speaker D: In a vast sea of information on autism, are you searching for the best information to help your child reach their highest potential families for Effective Autism Treatment, Houston provides information on applied behavior analysis, families need to know hallmarks of a strong ABA program and questions to ask when evaluating providers. Our website has comprehensive listings of providers, trainings and ABA grants for families and scholarships for public school teachers. Visit fethouston.org to learn more.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: If you need help or resources. Whether you're a parent, someone on the spectrum, a business or a community organization who want to know more or need help or want to share resources, please reach out to
[email protected] thanks for joining.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Us on Shining Through Inspiring Voices of Autism. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share with others who want to celebrate neurodiversity. Until next time, keep Shining.
