[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Shining Inspiring Voices of Autism with show host Jennifer Dantzler. My name is Amelia and I have autism. Thank you for taking the time to
[00:00:08] Speaker B: learn more about the world of autism.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: If you enjoy what you hear today, don't forget to follow this podcast.
[00:00:12] Speaker C: Hey, everyone, this is Jennifer Dantzler, and I'm the executive director and founder of inspirend, a nonprofit whose mission is to create truly inclusive communities through education and engagement. The goal of this podcast is to shine a light on real people and their stories in hopes of inspiring others who are on this journey of autism. Either themselves, their child, their loved one, their co worker. I truly believe ignorance is not bliss, and we cannot be inclusive communities if we do not understand the people in the community. With autism now affecting 1 in 31 people, we need to get louder about this topic. We recognize that autism is a spectrum. There are a lot of people with a lot of different needs, a lot of resources available or none available. And we know that in every episode we can't meet everyone's needs for their specific interest.
However, we hope that in each episode you do gleam some kind of insight as to how you can help your
[00:01:03] Speaker D: child or yourself be a better advocate.
[00:01:06] Speaker C: And as we go through our podcast, our goal really is to address the entire spectrum, the various needs, the various environments that we're going to be in. And we hope that there's something in every episode for each one of you.
[00:01:17] Speaker D: So let's get started.
Today I have a special guest. I know I say they're all special, but she's special because I've known her for over 18 years. My friend and colleague, Nicole O' Donnell here. Nicole and I met about 18 years ago when applied for a job at Including Kids Little side fun fact. She actually thought it was a daycare and walked in and said, well, what the heck, I'll stay and try this out. And 18 and a half years later, she first was an RBT, then a BCABA, then a BCBA, then a director, and now she's a director of clinical operations at Empower Behavioral Health. And so we're so excited to have you here. Thank you for being here, Nicole.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:55] Speaker D: Okay, so today we're going to talk actually about executive functioning and diagnosis, like add. On episode before this one, we had a wonderful guest named Sophia on who talked about her diagnosis with ADD and anxiety. That didn't come until she was a teenager, which is a whole lot of what we're seeing right now, especially in women. But Nicole is what I would call our executive functioning Guru. She sort of early on in her career with us, took an interest in executive functioning and sort of what makes us all tick and how do we do what we do every day. And so I thought she would be the perfect person to come on and sort of follow up Sophia's and really take a deeper dive into executive functioning. So first, Nicole, let's just start with what is executive functioning?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: So executive functioning are kind of a set of cognitive skills that is really the air traffic controller of your brain. So it allows you to set goals, to plan, to organize, solve problems, manage your emotions, and really like regulate your behavior and adapt to new situations.
[00:02:56] Speaker D: So that seems pretty important for all of us.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:02:59] Speaker D: What are some of the core key areas of executive functioning?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: So there's really three core areas of executive functioning that then branch out into a lot of other areas that most people have heard of. So the three core areas of executive functioning are working memory, cognitive flexibility, and inhibitory control. And then like I said, it branches out into other kind of things. So when we're talking about working memory, it's not just holding information in your mind or retrieving it, it's holding information and using it at the same time. So that's like when you do math problems in your head or if someone gives you a set of numbers and then you have to put them in order and it's all just through your brain, not writing things down. That's more of working memory. Cognitive flexibility is kind of what you think of as flexibility, like being able to adapt, being able to be creative, things like that inhibitory control or self control, that's like response inhibition. So stopping yourself from eating the whole bag of chips or not touching everything in the store just because it looks, you know, fluffy or whatever. And then from those core ones, they can kind of combine together to work into other executive functioning skills. So if you want to think about the three core areas as the three primary colors, red, yellow, and then you can mix them together to get other colors or other executive functioning skills like time management, organization planning, metacognition, or self monitoring, like thinking about your own thinking, prioritizing, selective attention, problem solving, perspective taking kind of branches out from there. So if you ever Google executive functioning, you're going to get lots of different lists of all these different areas that I mentioned, but there's really just the three core. And then you mix those together to get all these other ones as well.
[00:04:34] Speaker D: I love your image of the three colors and then mixing them together. I think that's a great way to explain that people might only have a deficit in one of the core areas or one of the blended colors. Right. It's not typically across the board.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: It can be. It just depends on how affected they are. But executive functioning is really. It's like a muscle. So you can strengthen it. And we all have this muscle. And then there are things that can affect it too, like lack of sleep, being ill, being stressed. It can affect anybody's executive functioning skills and how well they're able to use those skills.
[00:05:05] Speaker D: Who typically needs help with executive functioning?
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Well, we all do. Like I said, we all get tired, we all get sick, we all get stressed. There are times we all need some supports in that. But some diagnoses that are pretty common would be adhd, autism, and some learning disabilities like dyslexia and things like that.
[00:05:23] Speaker D: Okay, can you see these symptoms or deficits early on in age? Like, when do they typically show up?
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yes. So the three core areas develop at different points throughout your life. But even babies show some sorts of like self control or inhibition. Cognitive flexibility tends to happen later in life. And, you know, that's. I think part of the reason we get like terrible twos and whatnot is because kids are learning those skills. They're still developing them.
[00:05:44] Speaker D: Would you say they probably start to show up more in like late elementary school as the work gets harder and more responsibility gets put on the kids?
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Or for sure, when you have more on you to like, manage, then yes, you're going to see it more. But you can see it in younger kids too, depending on which area it is. So if it's cognitive flexibility is a real challenge, you could see that as young as like five, if the kids are like just really struggling, like all kids have tantrums. But if these are just seem kind of excessive, like, wow, we're constantly having these tantrums. All kids are disorganized right until they learn the systems. But if it's like, wow, this kid is constantly losing things, it can kind of show up. But yes, I would say generally we tend to notice around early elementary because that's when they're going to school and they're getting responsibilities and routines and things like that and having to interact with other people too.
[00:06:30] Speaker D: So you just started to talk about it a little bit. But what are some of the challenges you do see? So if a parent's sitting here saying, I wonder if my child has some executive functioning deficits, what are some of the challenges you see?
[00:06:40] Speaker B: So when they are maybe like kindergarten, first grade, there might be just like really hard Time managing their emotions, like when things change or things at school, like go out of the norm, out of the routine, or they have trouble even sticking to the routines, or are even more unorganized than typical. So my son was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of five. So he was in kindergarten. He had a lot of. I mean, his was mostly hyperactive at that point, so that kind of overshadowed everything else. But some of the executive functioning things we started seeing over time was constantly losing things he couldn't plan out. Like, if you said, go clean your room, there was just a meltdown because it was so overwhelming. Like, where do I even start? And I'd have to really break it down for him, like, just pick up dirty clothes. Let's do that first. And then he could focus on just that. And then, okay, now we're just gonna pick up cars. Any cars you see, go pick that up. I really had to break things down for him like, that he would just get overwhel and just melt down.
[00:07:33] Speaker D: But I think that's so important because as a parent, if you don't understand that, you know, add like that's real. Like this paralysis thing is almost is real. And it's not them being defiant or lazy. Right. Because then you start getting into these battles. And, you know, I spoke on the episode with Sophia, sharing about how my daughter wasn't diagnosed until 17, and as soon as I started to parent differently, it made a big difference. But early on, I think about the battles we had and just the. Why can't you just go do it?
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:59] Speaker D: Right. But like, she legitimately could not start and great example. Right. Okay, just start with this one aspect. And she always has to wait till the 11th and a half hour also, which drives me bonkers.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:10] Speaker D: But these things are real and they're part of the executive functioning challenges. This is not them being defiant.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yes. So some of the other kind of things that stand out would be like interrupting conversations. And that's a huge pet peeve of mine. When people interrupt a conversation or don't let me finish what I'm saying. So interrupting, like that's. That's that inhibitory control. Right. Like you can't stop yourself from jumping in and losing track of what somebody else is saying in the middle of the conversation, that's kind of your working memory because they've already moved on. So those things can be really frustrating when you're having a conversation or trying to interact with somebody. But a lot of these executive functioning challenges, they look like character flaws from the outside. Like you said, like lazy. They're just rude, they're flaky, they just don't care. But it really is just a neurological challenge that they have. And if you just kind of think, okay, you just have to kind of reframe it. These are just challenges this person has that's neurological that they can't control. And we shouldn't blame them or shame them for that. We just need to put in some supports. And sometimes with things like interrupting, like, my son used to do that a lot, I would just have to say, hey, you just interrupted me again. Can I finish what I'm saying? Let's try it again, and then do it again, and then say, yes, thank you, that made me feel better. And just kind of point it out.
[00:09:18] Speaker D: Well, and to that point, also not taking it personally, they probably are genuinely interested in what you have to say, but it appears that they don't.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:25] Speaker D: And I could see that a lot happening as we get older. Right. Then you're in relationships or even in the office.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:32] Speaker D: And your boss is coming in for a very important conversation. Then you're either interrupting or you've moved on to the next conversation. And you shouldn't do that with your boss. But that's just how your brain works.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And so a lot of times when you have executive functioning challenge, too, you kind of have a social deficit with it, or it can look like it's a social skill deficit, but maybe it's really underlying executive functioning. But it's still helpful to point out how that challenge affects the social relationship. So with my son, I would say, you know, when you go on these long monologues about this video game that you really like and you've lost your audience, and then you wonder why you. Your friend doesn't want to continue playing with you. This is why. So you have to stop and that's that control again, and ask about them and see what they want to do, because then they're going to want to keep playing with you. So sometimes I do see that too, especially with ADHD or even people with autism who have similar deficits, is that it translates into social challenges, too, because of those things.
[00:10:23] Speaker D: How does your son take this feedback? Like, does he, like, when you give him those tips and tools, does he fight them or combat them or say, mom, you don't understand.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: So I got into all this executive functioning stuff before he was born. So by the time I started noticing that he had these deficits, I already had a toolbox. And so from the age of five, I was talking to him about it. And I was very honest about this is your diagnosis, this is what it means. That doesn't mean that you're doing something, you know, there's something wrong necessarily, but there's things that you just have to work a little harder at. I would draw parallels with him like, okay, so you know, I have anxiety, so this is, these are things that are hard for me with anxiety. You have adhd, these are things that are hard for you. And then here are some tools. And so I think because I started talking to him about it really young, it was just normalized for him. He's had color coded or vision visual organization systems in his room in his life. He's had visual task analyses and routines forever. And we would practice, hey, let's make a plan for how you're going to clean your room so that you don't always have to wait for me to tell you how to do it. So I think because we started young, he's been pretty open to it. And even now he's a teenager, which comes with its own emotional control struggles. But for the most part he's pretty open to it because he's also seen the reinforcement that comes when you use the strategy and then you do well. Like you get a good grade or good feedback from a friend or whatever
[00:11:35] Speaker D: it is well, and he definitely got the right mama because by nature you are a color coding chart list.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Maybe that's why I got into executive functioning. It just made so much sense for me.
[00:11:44] Speaker D: It didn't make so much sense for you. And honestly for people who don't have that, you know, I can tell you firsthand from work, everyone's always like, and I also say to people, go talk to Nicole about that. If you need to figure out how to organize that, go talk to Nicole about that. In high school, time management is an issue. So can you talk a little bit about like in the day of a life of anyone, what are some of the executive functioning tools that we use or if we don't have, we might not use where we see some struggles.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Okay, so I'll take my morning for example. So I get up, have to get my kids ready for school, make sure they leave. And then this morning I actually had a doctor's appointment that I had to drive 30 minutes to. I got up and then I have to have some self control to not start scrolling immediately on my phone and get into, you know, all the social media or my email or whatever it is. So there's some control right then and there. And you're kind of groggy, right? You just woke up. So that affects it a little bit. Didn't have coffee. Cause I was gonna get blood drawn. So that didn't help. My son started having a meltdown because, one, his ADHD medicine hadn't kicked in yet. But two, he. I think he lost something. There was some reason. And so he was panicking that he was gonna be late for school, even though he had plenty of time. Which is part of the issue with executive functioning, is sometimes that time management, it's because you can't even gauge how long it's gonna take to do something. So he was thinking it was gonna take all this time to get to school. I was like, you have plenty of time. And I'm having to be the calm, stable person because he's having his emotional disruption. I still was susceptible to time management challenges because I did scroll a little too long on my phone. And then I had to jump in the show and get that done. And in my brain, I'm planning, right? So I'm like, I gotta get done with the shower. I gotta put the hair stuff in my hair so it doesn't get too frizzy. And then I gotta put on my X, Y and Z outfit and I gotta, oh, I'm going to Kingwood, so I have to. Which way am I gonna drive? So there was a lot of planning that went into that. Plus time management of trying to estimate times and things like that.
[00:13:26] Speaker D: But you do that naturally. And not every brain works that way, right?
[00:13:31] Speaker B: So the difference is my son only had to get on his bike and ride to school. And he was like, having a whole meltdown because that one step was too much because he left four minutes later than he normally does. Okay, so that was a lot for him. When he takes his medication, though, it kind of gives his ADHD brain a pause to be able to use the skills that he already has and to show some of that cognitive flexibility and control of. Wait, it's only four minutes. I know what time the door is open. I know what time school starts. I do have enough time. Or even if there's days where he's like, he doesn't have enough time. So last week we had to go to the dentist.
It was late arrival day. But we were gonna get back just in time for him to ride his bike to school. He likes to get breakfast at school before school starts, even though he eats breakfast at home. But he's a teenage boy. So then on his way to school, somehow crashed his bike, and he calls Me and immediately just wants me to come pick him up and take him to school. I was like, no, you can. You're fine. You're not dead. You're not like, you know, you didn't break any bones. You got a scrape, so just get on your bike, go to school. But I had to break it down for him of, get on your bike, go to school. As soon as you get there, go straight to the cafeteria, grab a prepackaged muffin that you can eat, and go straight to the nurse's office so they can give you a band aid. And they'll let you eat it in the office because they love him. And then they'll give you a pass to go to class. So even if you're a little late, it's not a big deal. But he couldn't see any of that. I had to break it all down for him. All of those steps of problem solving. He crashed his bike, and he was like, just take me to school. That's the only option. There was no other problem solving that his brain could do at that time.
[00:15:00] Speaker D: Okay, wow. So those are some great examples there. I know that for my daughter, she'd come home from school and high school and be overwhelmed. Cause she had so much homework. And then she'd come out a half an hour later and it'd be done. I was like, that wasn't a lot, but it was because she had four things. But those four things maybe only took three minutes. But for her, four was just. It was too overwhelming to think of the amount, the number of them, versus how long it'll actually take.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: All the time with my son. So I'll try to tell him sometimes, like, okay, get out a piece of paper. Let's just do some planning. Write down each of the tasks, then estimate how long they're going to take based on the last time you did it. He'll even write out, like, schedules for the day, too. And he'll add in. Buffer time is really important. Make sure you're always. Everybody should always add in buffer time. And then sometimes that helps him kind of take a breath. So, like, when he's having a. I would say, like a good day and not struggling as much, he does that on his own because I've already taught him those skills. And he'll say, mom, I have a lot to do, but I made a plan. This is my plan. And I've added in extra time. And then he's good. He can do it. And then there's other days where I have to help him through that process.
[00:15:58] Speaker D: Well, and that brings up a really great point. So I was going to ask is, you know, is he starting to learn and use some of these tools on his own? And it sounds like yes, but inconsistently yes. So it doesn't mean you can. Once you've taught them, you can release the responsibility you might still need to jump in and help support in some form or fashion.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Yes. And always reinforce, always praise the behavior you want to see so it continues in the future. And I like to also point out to him when he does one of those things. Well, I like to not just say, great job doing that, but look what it did for you in that moment. Like, look, now you feel so much less stressed. Now you have more time to play video games. Try to tie it to that sort of natural reinforcer for him just to make sure he sees that right.
[00:16:35] Speaker D: And that hopefully eventually it will become truly intrinsic so that, you know, if he's away at school or what have you, he'll use all those tools that you've worked with him on over the years. Okay, great. Okay, let's get a little bit more specific because a lot of the areas that I see major problems are really are time management, organization, and like, just processing in general. So in the area of time management, what are some. You already mentioned a few. Buffering time for sure. Making out your plan and your lists. Do you have other tools in the area of time management that could be helpful?
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Visual timers are really helpful for time management.
[00:17:06] Speaker D: So it's a visual timer versus a regular timer.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: So it's basically a timer that shows a color for the amount of time to make it more concrete. Because time's kind of an abstract concept. They're called time timers, but you can also get them online too. But it basically will show a red zone for the amount of time you have. And then that color slowly gets gets smaller as the time decreases. So they can kind of visually see how much time is left.
[00:17:28] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: I use those a ton with my son when he was younger. I think he's kind of now he gets a better idea of that time stuff, but I now use it more so with my daughter, who is almost 10. Could possibly be ADHD. Not sure yet, but is definitely dyslexic. Sometimes she has challenges with understanding time as well, but that really helps her kind of see it concretely to know how much time she has left for something.
[00:17:50] Speaker D: That might be an example, like if you're saying 10 more minutes on video games right before bed or what have you. Because 10 minutes. In their mind, 10 minutes might be something different than what 10 minutes actually is. Right.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: So they're watching and setting an actual timer, like a regular timer. Sometimes it's just stressful because it's just this thing in the background that you can't see. And then at some point it's gonna go off. So that can cause some more stress and anxiety. So sometimes being able to visually see it going down so you're not kind of startled when the timer goes off can be helpful.
[00:18:16] Speaker D: Okay, great. What's another one?
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Another ABA strategy that works really well. The pre Mac principle. So I'm gonna spend this much time on something and then I'm gonna give myself a five minute break to kind of.
That can kind of help with that feeling of being overwhelmed when you have a big task to do. Again, we do that when we're cleaning our rooms and different things like that. Still, literally this weekend when we were cleaning our room, we said, we're just gonna spend one hour on this and then we're all gonna go take a break. It kind of helps everybody feel less overwhelmed with the amount of time that we're spending on things.
[00:18:43] Speaker D: And that amount of time is really probably based mostly on that person's attention span.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Speaker D: So is it like just a couple minutes less than what their average attention span would be kind of thing?
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah. When my son was younger and we did like cleaning the room, it would be like five minutes on, five minutes off now that we're a teenager. And I actually sat with him to help because we were sorting through clothing that fits or doesn't fit. So mom needed to be more involved. That was an hour because we could handle that. But yes, for younger, it's much shorter.
[00:19:08] Speaker D: Okay, let's move on to the area of organization.
What are some tools for organization? Because I know there's different aspects of organization, Right. Everything from organizing your thoughts to organizing your homework and your materials and your work bag, to organization of your locker, organization of your room.
So that's a big area. What are a couple tips and tricks in the world of organization?
[00:19:29] Speaker B: Creating a routine. Whatever system that you want to use for organization, it has to be built into a routine. Because once it's a routine, you're no longer actually relying on your executive functioning to manage that. It's now more of an autopilot kind of thing. So you create sort of landing zones, if you will, for your most important items. For example, so my son was constantly losing his middle school badge, and it costs a dollar every time he needs a temporary one, and then, you know, $15 to replace it. And it was getting very frustrating in sixth grade. And so I would be like, like, what are you doing with this thing when you get home? Like, how does it disappear at home? You don't even need it at home. And he was just hanging it up in different places every time. So I had to create a landing zone for him. So I said, as soon as you get home and you take off your backpack, you're clipping it onto the loop on your backpack. The end. Because in the morning, you're not going to forget your backpack, therefore it will be with it. So trying to find those landing zones. So the same thing for, like, keys or purse or phones. We haven't mastered the phone yet because he's still losing.
[00:20:21] Speaker D: I don't know that anyone has. I don't know that.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: I mean, I still do it too.
[00:20:24] Speaker D: If you have, like, please, you know, reach out to me, because too many
[00:20:28] Speaker B: landing zones for my phone is really the problem. If you just create those landing zones and then make it a routine, then it reduces that load on your executive functioning skills. So for assignments and homework and things, he was just putting all the papers in his backpack. And not only does that make them look terrible, but he was losing a lot of stuff. And then we would clean his backpack out and he'd be like, oh, that's where that assignment went. And it would drive me nuts. So I got him a binder of folders. That's all it is, is folders that are bound together. And we labeled them by class. And I said, said, any paper that you're about to put in your backpack has to go in one of these folders. Do not put it anywhere in your backpack but in one of these folders. And I'm not with him at school, so I can't hold his hand to do that. So it was a lot of, like, following up every single day with him. And if he hadn't done it, do it right then and there. If he had done it, lots of praise for doing it. And then I sort of thinned that schedule of reinforcement. Didn't talk about it as much. And then this weekend, noticed his backpack was a disaster again. So we're gonna have to go back to some maintenance on that one. But for a little while, it really helped him not lose assignments to know what homework he had to do. Which then goes into another organ organization thing on using planners to make sure that you know what you have to do. I think a lot of people, like, know that they should Use planners, but there isn't any one planner that's good for everyone. It's really trial and error on what planner is going to work best for you. Whatever season of life that you're in. So my planners have constantly changed for me. Like, probably every year, I do something different with planners because I need it to fit what I need it for at that moment. And I haven't found a good one for my son. So his school does give a free one to the kids. So that's the one I'm trying to get him to use. Because it's also something that one of his teachers does check regularly for a grade, so he has to use that one. I don't think it's the best one for him. But staying on top of putting his assignments in that is a real challenge. It's always in his backpack every day. I was saying, did you write it in your planner? Did you write it in your planner? And he'd be like, nope. And then you'd have to go back and remember, which is hit or miss on that memory. So then I tried to create a rule of, okay, don't ever put the planner back in your backpack. You carry it with you all day. That way, as soon as you get into class, if it's up on the board, what you need to do, you write it in the planner. Or at the end of class, you write it in your planner. Because there's always that little bit of time before and after class where there's some downtime for kids. That's when you write in your planner. That's when you do it. You should not be using your brain to hold information. Your brain is for problem solving. You want to get all of that out. And on paper, that's still a challenge. But it is something that is really helpful, is to have a planner that really works for you and that you can always access. A lot of people like digital, but some people like to write. I really do like that tactile sensation of writing, so I prefer written planners myself.
[00:22:49] Speaker D: Well, and again, that's a tool for all of us for life. I know when someone comes into a meeting with me and they have nothing with them to write down on my confidence level in whether or not they're going to retain and actually go do the to DOS drops drastically. Because there's no way in an hour meeting, you can remember all the things you discussed and the action items from that meeting. Right? And then most of the time, I'm accurate and something was not completed. So for all of us, in life. Bring a notebook and pen with you wherever you go, or your notes in your phone, whatever it is. But executive functioning is hard for all of us.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: It sure is. One of the resources that I really like is getting things done by David Allen, the whole book and system that he has. But one of the things he talks about is having a capture location, which is where you capture your to DOS or organize your to dos. An important point is don't have too many of those, just like landing zones for your things. You can't have too many places where you're catching your to dos, otherwise you're not actually organizing them. If it is a planner or a notebook, write it there. He says no more than two. And I find that's, that's probably accurate. So maybe like a planner and then if I don't have one with me, I email myself because I'm constantly going to check my email and then I'll take those to DOS and put them in the planner. If you think about organization of like organizing the things you need to do, but only have like two places where you're trying to capture that stuff. Because if you have sticky notes, plus emails, plus a planner, two planners, that's. It's just not going to.
[00:24:04] Speaker D: Why are you looking at me like that might be something that I do?
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Nicole, I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:24:10] Speaker D: Yeah, like you know me.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Another thing that I've been using is I have a digital calendar in my house, like a visual one that I got last year that has been so helpful for organizing all the things that we do. Because I have two kids, they're involved in sports and all these things. They have different school events and then I've got stuff. And so we organize everything on that. Well, I do. I put everything on that calendar. It's color coded by person. I can send it from my phone. I can take a picture of like a flyer. Like if school sends me a flyer and says this event's on this day, I can take a picture of it and send it to the calendar and it adds it to my calendar. And so that way when the kids are asking me too, like, what do we have to do on Saturday? I'm like, go check the calendar. I don't know. I don't know off the top of my head because again, I'm trying not to hold that information in my head. I need to have it out somewhere. And then we can even see, oh, look, it's kind of like time blocked. So instead of just saying at 10 o' clock. I have this thing, it shows like a visual kind of like the visual timer of 10 to 11 is blocked out, and then, you know, 10:30 to this is blocked out. So I see that we have overlapping appointments. We need to do something about that.
[00:25:05] Speaker D: Right. So. But that's to your point, that's all visual.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:08] Speaker D: And then doesn't rely also on mom having to say everything every single way? Yeah. Again, another tool that it sounds like every family should be using, regardless of whether you have executive functioning deficits or not. Okay, so now we have some other tools around, like maybe tasks and, you know, inhibition and those sorts of things. So what are some tips and tricks around some of those areas?
[00:25:27] Speaker B: A thing that you can help yourself kind of get over that task initiation hurdle is to sort of prime yourself ahead of time. So, like, general strategy people like to use is put out your gym clothes at night so that when you wake up in the morning, they're already ready to go to get over that initial hurdle of, gosh, I gotta go to the gym. So it's the same thing like setting your coffee pot on a timer so that that coffee's already ready to go when you get up, so it's a little bit easier to get out of bed in the morning, things like that.
[00:25:50] Speaker D: So it makes the first step a little less overwhelming.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you can kind of think of it as like priming, reducing activation energy, or getting over that initial response effort. I was gonna say inertia. That's the word.
[00:26:01] Speaker D: Okay. Yes. Right? Yeah. Okay, good. Good way to say it. Wonderful. Okay, love that. Okay, so now we've talked about some tools. Do you have any other spec tools in any of the areas that you'd like to share that you just think are, you know, amazing?
[00:26:13] Speaker B: A couple other ones that I really like are the two minute rule. So if it's gonna just take you two minutes to do it, just do it. Because then you don't have to even put it on your list to do.
Also, it brings in the strategy of reinforcement because you're getting immediate reinforcement for finishing that. That task.
[00:26:26] Speaker D: Yeah, we talk about that one all the time, even in leadership training, because people get overwhelmed by the number of tasks. And I love that rule. Two minute rules. Or it's the same thing at your house. If there are two dishes in the sink, it'll take less than two minutes to do those two dishes, or else those two become 12, which.
Which definitely then now you're washing dishes for an hour, which is very aversive.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Another thing, again, goes back To ABA is pairing something you don't like with something you do like. So if I have to fold a huge pile of laundry, I'm gonna do it while I listen to an audiobook or I watch my favorite show or listen to some music, whatever it is. Just kind of pairing that thing that I enjoy doing with something that's probably less fun. That kind of, again, gets over that, like, response inhibition that. That task initiation of, I don't want to do this. I'd rather go play a video game. That's too much. Well, I can. I can do something fun while I do this other task.
[00:27:10] Speaker D: Well. And I think that's also more specifically for add. But that's one of the things I learned too, through my daughter, is the brain almost has to have multiple inputs at one time in order to process, which for those people who are not add, don't understand that.
[00:27:22] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:22] Speaker D: But she has to when she's doing her homework. She's actually way more effective when she does have the TV on or music on. And she can't just focus if it's just her homework. Right.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:32] Speaker D: And. But yet you are supposed to be teaching your child. No. No distractions. But yet. Now, a lot of what I teach in my neurodiversity in the workplace is have fidgets out, have things for people to do because that's the only way their brain can focus. So it's opposite of what I think we initially knew were taught in parenting.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yes. I think there is just one caveat, is that fidgets are great if you follow the fidget rule. Your hands can be on your fidget, but your mind has to be on whatever task you're supposed to be doing. Yes, fidgets are great, but if they're distracting you from the lesson or from the conversation, then they're not a fidget, they're a distraction. It's the same with the multiple input. My roommate likes to cook with the TV going, but the attention for the TV show is too much on the TV show and not enough on the cooking.
So then you end up with mushy vegetables or burnt, you know, different things and absolutely cannot cook three different things at the same time that all get done at different times because that is way too much on that mental load. So I would suggest things like listen to music instead. It's still something that is giving you that input and is enjoyable, but it doesn't take too much of the attention towards the thing that is not as important.
[00:28:38] Speaker D: Okay. So I love that rule around fidgets. The fidgets, if they're helpful in you attending to the other tasks, but not if they're not. If they're distracting from the other task.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:28:47] Speaker D: Okay, so actually as you say that, let's talk a little bit about school. School accommodations, are these all things that can be applied in school and are they allowed to be required by the school to do?
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Yes. So a lot of accommodations at school are really around executive functioning and you can get those for your child through a 504 or an IEP or ARD meeting, depending on, you know, what their diagnosis is. So my son is ADHD, so he has a 504 with accommodations. And my daughter has dyslexia, so she has an I IEP with some accommodations too. Some of the kind of accommodations my son gets for 504 is he gets an extra day on assignments so he can turn them in a day late. And that's because he loses things and longer projects take him a little bit longer. It doesn't mean every single assignment is turned in a day late. It's just there in case he needs it. And we've had to use it a handful of times this year, but actually hadn't had to use it previously. So it was really helpful because it causes him a lot of stress knowing that he's going to turn something in late, just knowing he has that extra day. We still shoot for that initial deadline. That's the one goal. But this is kind of our built in buffer if he needs it.
[00:29:48] Speaker D: Are you worried at all about him taking advantage of that or him perceiving that as a like, you know, a leg up kind of thing?
[00:29:55] Speaker B: I did initially, but I had a very stern conversation with him when he got that accommodation that that is not what it was for and it was as needed and he needs to stick to the original deadline. So he's been really good about that.
[00:30:05] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: He also gets preferential seating, which is a big one that schools like to give. But it can be very helpful because it just means that you going to be put in whatever spot in the room is best for you. Because a lot of times, you know, teachers will do assign seats and then they'll move people around. But like in kindergarten, he absolutely needed to sit next to the teacher. He wasn't on medication yet. His ADHD was way out of control. He was really upsetting a lot of kids too with his different behaviors. So he needed to be sat next to the teacher so she could just put a hand on him and be like, hey, calm down or hey, lower voice, things like that. And even now he gets that. But it looks a little different in middle school. So if he is too distracted working in the classroom on something, they will let him go sit in the hallway to work on something because it's a little quieter. And a lot of schools actually are really good about flexible seating, they call it now, at least in elementary I've seen they have like wiggle stools and different types of chairs and places in the room to go sit and work. So I think teachers have kind of seen that as beneficial for all kids anyways, because that one has never been something that I've ever had to like, really fight for. That's just been handed to my kids. But the one in middle school has been really helpful where they do let them sit out in the hallway to focus. They've seen that that really helps him.
[00:31:06] Speaker D: So. But these accommodations need to be because they have a formal diagnosis, right, for them to go through a 504 or these formal accommodations. So the parents would request maybe an ADD evaluation or an executive functioning evaluation.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: So the way it worked with my son is I actually got him diagnosed with ADHD privately outside of the school. But that was also because I knew I wanted to pursue medication. So to do that you need a, you need a medical doctor. And then I was able to give that diagnosis to the school. They recognized it and gave him a 504. My daughter got diagnosed with dyslexia in school. So she came up on a screener in kindergarten. I think it was for dyslexia. And, and then they did more testing. They decided she didn't have dyslexia, but I disagreed. I got an iee, which is an external evaluation that the school pays for. So they re evaluated her externally, sent that to the school, and they said, okay, yeah, she really does have dyslexia. And so then she got her services. Hers are mostly around the learning disability for dyslexia. So she gets like 30 to 45 minutes pull outs of dyslexia specific training, like during reading times, because that's really what it affects her with the most. But a couple of her accommodations are things like being able to get oral instructions instead of reading them because that works better for her.
[00:32:14] Speaker D: But for the ADD kid, visual instructions versus oral instructions are better, right?
[00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, for the most part. I'm not going to say no kid with ADHD wouldn't do better with auditory, but for sure written because they may forget what you just told them. So being able to go back and refer to it is going to be helpful.
[00:32:27] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: So hers are more geared around that academic and reading part. But she has an IEP because dyslexia is recognized as special education.
[00:32:35] Speaker D: I think the point to all of this that I'm hoping the listeners hear is that there are tools and it doesn't need to be as hard as it is for the child or for the parent or anyone in the household. If every morning it's a fight to get up and get out and get ready to go and get all your stuff together, you know, have that checklist by the front door of all the items you need to have with you before you walk out of the house. Right.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: We had so many visual checklists for my kids, like, this is what you need for soccer practice. This is what you do right before bed. This is what you do in the morning. My kids have had those since they were little.
[00:33:04] Speaker D: And we all have checklists in some form or fashion. So it's not even like it shouldn't be taboo or some big modification or addition in life.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: No, it helps everybody.
[00:33:14] Speaker D: It does. It absolutely does. And you know, and the thing I also try to remind parents and self advocates is when you get your high school or college diploma, nowhere on there are listed those accommodations or supports you needed to get to that place. It doesn't modify your diploma or your, you know, your graduation degree, whatever it is. And if that's what helped you get there, then life doesn't have to be as hard as it is sometimes without those supports.
Yeah.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: And we've actually had a really good experience, especially with my son's 504, because his teachers have always been really good about identifying what works for him and advocating for it. And I've never really had to like, quote unquote, fight the school for any of the things that he needs. Next year he's going into high school and he got accepted into an early college high school. And so you would, you know, think, oh, gosh, how is that going to work? And they were just like, nope, these accommodations go with him. It's not a big deal. These get to go with him now because he is going to be at a community college as well. We have to apply through the Office of Disability Services with the college to get additional ones for that to me, felt very normalized from the school's perspective of, yeah, this kid has a five, four, he has accommodations, not a big deal. We're just going to do them.
[00:34:17] Speaker D: Let's just take a couple quick minutes and talk a little bit about then these types of things as we get older and into the workplace as well. Because I think a lot of adults who have ADD especially, or anxiety or ocd, some of these things, and maybe didn't even know it until they were an adult. I know a lot of women are just now getting diagnosed or realizing that they have undiagnosed add. Are these things that they can or should be asking for in the workplace?
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. So whether you're talking about accommodations in schools or in the workplace, I think again, you have to think like reframe it for yourself, that accommodations aren't giving somebody an unfair advantage over somebody else. It's just leveling the playing field for everybody. Because not everybody has the same challenges, so they don't need the support necessarily. For example, like if you go back to the school, if a student with executive functioning challenges is taking a time test and they do poorly, that probably just measured their ability to get work done in that amount of time, not the actual content. So if what you actually want to measure is do they understand the content, Then you have to take out the timed portion. But it's the same thing with the workplace. So if I need to be able to work when I am at my, you know, they call it the prime time, like the when I'm the most productive and my work is able to structure my tasks around that time, that benefits me, but it also benefits the company because I'm doing my best work. It just may happen to be at a different time than other people. And that's not obviously something you can do in every job. But that's one example. Doing written instructions versus verbal instructions honestly helps everybody. Everybody needs it written down because we all have days where we're gonna forget. Like I said, executive functioning can suffer based on sleep, illness, stress. And all of us experience all of those things.
[00:35:50] Speaker D: Like, I know a lot of places have what we call like the 10 minute standup morning meeting. And that's usually a verbal conversation. If it's more than two things or two goals or two items for the day, there should also maybe be a follow up email from that manager who led that meeting or something written on a board that they could take a picture of or something sent out in teams right at the same time.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Well, and now we've got a lot of AI note takers out there too that can maybe just turn it on. That's pretty easy. And then you've got a transcript of what you guys discuss that can be referred back to.
[00:36:20] Speaker D: And like other ones, let's talk about things like emails. I know emails can be overwhelming.
Are there Specific tools around chunking or anything that employees could request from their fellow employees.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: If you're honest about some of the challenges that you face, sometimes people are more likely to just give you grace. So, for example, like timely responses to emails, if that's like a big pet peeve, maybe you guys can agree on a time, the amount of time, like it's going to take me 24 hours, I'm not going to get it back to you in two hours, but give me 24 hours and then, and then if we both agree on that, then you're really allowing for the content to be more important than the response time necessarily, which may be harder for somebody to, you know, stay on top of that because if they're like in the zone working on something, they're not stopping to check their email to see that you just emailed them.
[00:37:05] Speaker D: Right. Well, and I know another one, you know, we've talked about, or even things like when you're sending out that initial email, if you need it back in a specific time frame, just say it, I need it back by three o'clock today. Any concerns with that in your head? You needed it by three, but you don't say that in the email. And then someone doesn't get it back to you by three and now they've let you down. But you never set that expectation in the first place.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah, setting expectations ahead of time is another good one. So like, if you're going to have a meeting, send out the agenda ahead of time honestly gives everybody time to process what the meeting is about. And it kind of saves you time during the meeting too, because everyone's already primed, they've already got thoughts going. They already know what the point is. We're not starting the meeting with what was this about again? I don't remember. Do you remember? So setting those clear expectations, and not just for meetings or emails, but even just the job in general, hey, when you're done with this, you need to come back and check in with me and then, you know, we'll move on from there. Again, we do make a lot of assumptions about what people sort of those hidden rules at the workplace. It's just better for everyone if we're just clear up front.
[00:37:59] Speaker D: Well, and I think to your point, I don't even think someone has to formally say to someone else, hey, just so you know, when I was 18, I was, you know, late diagnosed with ADD and you know, and tell their whole story. It's more of a, hey, can you
[00:38:10] Speaker C: do me a favor?
[00:38:10] Speaker D: When you send an Email. If it's longer than two paragraphs, can you chunk it into bullets for me? Because I tend to get a little overwhelmed by that.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
Can you just bold any deadlines that are in there or if it's urgent, please just make it red or put an exclamation point or label it urgent.
[00:38:25] Speaker D: Right, Yeah. I mean things as simple as that, which again would help all of us with expectations. Right. So I think to that point, I think also in the workplace, just like you see with other people who have executive functioning challenges, it doesn't need to be as hard and shouldn't take as much of a toll on someone. And I know like last week Sophie even talked masking, which we talk a lot about in the world of autism, but I think we see it a lot in the areas of all executive functioning deficits where you might be able to get something done, but it takes way more of a toll than it should have if you had just used some of these tools.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: Is there anything else we haven't talked about that you would like to touch on? Because this is such a big area,
[00:39:01] Speaker B: I just wanted to share some games that can be fun for doing executive functioning.
[00:39:04] Speaker D: Love it, love it.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Because this is, you know, one of the things that I did in my previous life as community outreach director. I ran executive functioning groups for kids and we played a lot of games and it was just a. A lot of fun. So again, it doesn't all have to be like planners and checklists and color coded organization systems. You can work on executive functioning through games and it can be a lot more fun that way. So some of the games that I've liked to do is Taboo. So that's the game where you get a card where you can't say any of the words in white, but you have to get the team to guess the word in purple. So that's response inhibition. Right. Because you can't say something. It's very similar to charades, except you can talk. Right. So charades is another one. You can't talk. You have to act it out. So that one's another response inhibition. Another game is called Cartoon It. This one really works on that working memory because you see a card of a cartoon, you have a certain amount of time to look at it and then you have to flip it over and redraw it for your team. And. And you have to see how many of the the like features you got correct. That one can be funny too because, you know, people's drawing skills are always a huge. One of my favorite Games that I play. I don't just do this with kids. I do this with adults at work too. Just because it's a fun team builder. It's called 1, 2, 3, beep. So if you have three people in the group, your group is going to count to four. If you have four people in the group, you're gonna count to five. So you're always gonna want to count one more than the number of people. And basically each person counts off a number. So it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 1. You know, they'll count, they'll keep counting. Everybody takes a turn, take saying a number. Then after they kind of get in the groove of that, you start changing out the numbers. You can either change them into other words or sounds or actions. So this round will say, okay, Instead of saying four, you're gonna say beep. So the first person says one, the next person says, two, three, beep, five. One, two, three, beep,. So you keep going. And because you're counting one more than the number of people, then which number you're saying changes.
[00:40:45] Speaker D: Right. Got it.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: Okay. So that's part of your working memory and response inhibition, because you can't say the number that you know should be next. You have to say the action that you guys decided on, which is your working memory, and then you just keep substituting numbers. So I love to change it out with actions too, because it just gets sillier that way. But you really have to pay attention, because if. If instead of five, you have to stick out your tongue, you got to be paying attention to know if that person did that action or not. But it gets really funny, especially if you try to speed it up and people are trying to have to remember which number was what and not do the other thing. It gets really silly and really funny, and it can be a lot of fun, but it really does work on executive functioning as an added bonus for people with autism social skills, because you have to pay attention to the people around you to know if they did the action or didn't do the action. You can't zone out. It's not just like counting where you can just hear a number and say the next one. You got to pay attention so that one can get just really silly. Silly and fun.
[00:41:38] Speaker D: You could just Google that on the Internet to get instructions. You didn't make that up.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: Honestly, I have no idea where that came from. I don't remember if I made it up or not. I just call it 1, 2, 3, beep.
[00:41:46] Speaker D: Okay, well, if. If it's not on the Internet. Go back and re listen to this podcast four times, which will also help our follows and our likes and our views. But 1, 2, 3. Beep. Love that one. That is. That's just a fun, silly one.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: And then for like younger kids, there's two other games. It's called Spot It. So they're little cards that have different pictures of like animals and things on them. You pull out two of them and every card has one thing in comm. I don't know how they do that. It's some weird magic. But you flip over and then it's whoever can spot the thing that is the same on both cards first.
So there's a lot of working memory in that because while you're looking at one, you're trying to remember what's on the other one and all of that. And then the other one is blink. So they're cards that have a certain number of shapes that are a certain color. And so you have to match them either based on color, shape, or number of items on it. And it's supposed to be played fast. And then you can always change up the rules too, of any game. And that works on executive function, because now we've got some working memory and responsive inhibition in there. But those are some of my favorite games that I played.
[00:42:43] Speaker D: And so I think that's, you know, if you are doing a family game night, pull out these as games. If you're going to play games, why not work on some of these deficits? If you or someone in your family has this deficit or just to strengthen your executive function in general. Right?
[00:42:55] Speaker B: Yes. Because we all need to work on it.
[00:42:56] Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. Well, Nicole, this has been a ton of wonderful information. Hopefully people will go back and listen to comments couple times. Again, goal of today is to just start talking about some of those tools and really help families know that there are resources out there. They can and should be asking for those resources and stepping back and saying what part of our day is really hard. And every single day, you know, is it 50 first dates? Is it we're starting over again and can we create some tools so that could get a little better, Right?
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:43:24] Speaker D: Okay, well, thank you so much for being here.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:43:26] Speaker C: If you need help or resources, whether you, whether you're a parent, someone on the spectrum, a business or a community organization who want to know more or
[00:43:34] Speaker D: need help or want to share resources,
[00:43:37] Speaker C: please reach out to
[email protected] thanks for
[00:43:41] Speaker A: joining us on Shining Through. Inspiring voices of Autism. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow us. Leave a review and share it with others who want to celebrate neurodiversity. Until next time. Keep shining.
[00:43:54] Speaker D: Sam.
